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RILEY6291 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 19:22
My name is Derek Riley and I am a new member posting for the first time.
I learned from the WW1 Medal Card for my grandfather Pte John Whitton 3573 201229 that he served in East Lancashire Regiment during the Gallipoli campaign. I have a pocket book kept by him that indicates that he was in the East Lancashire Regiment, in the Lewis Gun Section. The content of the book is a bit of a mystery to me as it seems to contain pencil written notes by a number of different people about the use of a lewis gun possibly written when they were training to use this type of weapon.
 
I done a little research online about Gallipoli and I have joined the association to learn some more information about the involvement of my grandfather's regiment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lone Pine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 19:32
Hello Derek and welcome to the Gallipoli Forum, I hope you will be able to find the information that you need. 
 
It was my Grandfather who was at Gallipoli, but for some reason he joined up with the Australians and was KIA Lone Pine, but just wanted to say hello. Smile
Grandaughter of William Pritchard KIA Lone Pine
Lone Pine! Lone Pine!For those who come no more

No bugle call can wake them from their slumber:

Lone Pine! Lone Pine!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RILEY6291 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 20:35
Thank you for your welcome Lone Pine.
 
Closer inspection of my grandfather's pocket book now leads me to believe that he was in the 1/4 Bat of the 42nd East Lancs Regiment. I have already checked online and establshed that his service history has not survived. But I would be interested to learn if it is possible to re-create some form of service history by other means maybe from other men's records. How would I be able to go about this please could I ask. Thank you 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mal Murray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 21:19
Hi Derek,

Thanks for posting this.

I will take a look at the post in full tomorrow, but I think you might have misread the unit.
The 42nd East Lancs was a division.

You are correct regarding constructing a rough military service by comparison with other records.

I will see what I can find out for you.


Edited by Mal Murray - 04 Jan 2012 at 10:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mal Murray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 10:47
Hi Derek,
 
My initial research (and the information you supplied) would indicate that your grandfather served with the 1/4th Bn East Lancashire Regiment which was part of the 42nd East Lancashire Division.
 
His Medal Index Card shows him as entering the Gallipoli Theatre of Operations on 18/8/1915.
 
The fact that the Index Card shows two Regimental numbers may indicate that he served with two units ( This is my experience of similar cases with two Regimental numbers).
 
I will see what else I can find out for you.


Edited by Mal Murray - 04 Jan 2012 at 10:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mal Murray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 11:33
I have tracked one soldier with a Regt No. close to your Grandfather's
 
3830 Private Albert Adler enlisted in East Lancs 8 May 1915
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Trounson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 14:28
Hi Derek,
 
Welcome to the Association. You will find a wealth of information on here as well as likewise interested people who will help in your research. Depending on your knowledge of the campaign for a starter I would read a book that gives a general overview of the campaign to get a good grasp of what happened over the whole of the battlefield. You really need to have this understanding so that you can see the interaction of events over the three main areas of operation ie Helles, ANZAC and Suvla. I would then get into the more area specific books which would relate to the battles in which your grandfather was a part of. As my area of interest mainly relates to ANZAC and I am presuming your grandfather was at Helles I won't be all that much help to you. I do not know of books that directly relate to your grandfathers regiment but there are many on here that would know what is available as you have already seen Mal is a wealth of knowledge and will point you in the right direction. Hope you find the answers you are seeking.
 
Cheers,
 
Peter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mal Murray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 17:19

Derek,

The following is a brief timeline for the 1/4th Bn East Lancashire Regiment.
 

1/4th Battalion (Territorial Force).
August 1914 : in Blackburn. Part of East Lancashire Brigade in East Lancashire Division. Moved on mobilisation to Chesham Fold Camp (Bury) but sailed on 10 September 1914 from Southampton for Egypt.
26 May 1915 : formation became 126th Brigade, 42nd (East Lancashire) Division.
14 February 1918 : transferred to 198th Brigade in 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division, and absorbed 2/4th Bn. Renamed 4th Bn.
7 April 1918 : reduced to cadre strength.
16 August 1918 : transferred to 118th Brigade in 39th Division on Lines of Communication work.

It would appear from the diary that the second Regt No for your grandfather refers to his service with the 1st Bn East lancashire Regiment.
 
I have posted a brief history of the War service of the 42nd East Lancashire Diviosion, it may be viewed here;
 
 
I have also posted the photos of your grandfather that you so kindly gave permission to use on the forum. they may be viewed here;
 


Edited by Mal Murray - 04 Jan 2012 at 17:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRANE6260 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 14:59
Hi Derek,
My Grandfather and Great uncle also served in the 126th Brigade with the 1st 9th Manchesters.
I have found  Frederick Gibbon's history of the 42nd division invaluable in researching the 126th
 
 
It's packed with useful facts and the narrative is a really good read giving very detailed accounts of individual actions and troop movements etc.
Regards,
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RILEY6291 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2012 at 20:50
Mike
Thank you for the link to the book.  I am going to my local library tomorrow to see if I can order it. If not I will buy a copy.
 
I must also say thank you to Mal for the valuable information provided by him and to Peter for his encouragement.
 
Derek  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RILEY6291 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 16:06
Dear All
 
At long last I have now read The 42nd ( East Lancashire) Division  Division by Frederick P Gibbson and it has rekindled my interest to do some more reading around my grandfather's experiences. I am thinking in particular of the War Diaries as I am fortunate enough to live a short distance from the National Archive in Kew and hope to pay some visits there this year
 
From the information kindly supplied about in replies to my posts I know the date my grandfather arrived in Gallipoli but how do I link this information in order to try to trace the war diaries for his regiment as the only information I have now is from his medal card. Any help from members on this enquiry would be greatly appreciated
 
Kind regards
 
Derek
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RILEY6291 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 23:21
Dear All
 
Further to my earlier post today having done some digging in the National Archives website I believe I may have located the war diaries I am seeking for 126 Infantry Brigade: 1/4 Ballalion East Lancashire Regiment under reference WO 95/4315: Date Apl-Dec 1915. These diaries have yet to be digitised so I presume they can only be viewed at Kew. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.
 
Kind regards
 
Derek   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Trounson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2014 at 17:32
Hi Derek,

I am from the Antipodes so unfortunately cannot help you. Mal is now a grandfather and as he is also not replying to my emails no doubt is busy changing heaps of nappies so I will email Steve to see if he can assist you with your enquiry.

Cheers,

Peter

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RILEY6291 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2014 at 20:31
Dear Peter
 
Thank you for your assistance with my enquiry.
 
All the Best
 
Derek 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krithia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2014 at 23:47
Hi Derek,

I believe that Kew are the only public organisation that hold these war diaries so I think it will mean a visit, or wait until they are digitised.

As an alternative have you tried the regimental museum? Please see: http://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/east-lancashire-regiment/ as they often hold copies.

regards, Stephen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRANE6260 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 21:36
Hello Derek,
Welcome to the Association.
Your Grandfather was probably in 126th Brigade - 42nd [East Lancashire] Division.
There were 2 East Lanc's Reg. Battalions: 1st 4th [Blackburn]  and 1st 5th [Burnley]so may have been in either. 
I am also researching my Grandfather [and Great uncles] unit: 1st 9th Manchester  Regiment [Ashton-u-Lyne].
Their battalion was in the same Brigade as your Grandfathers.
A very good book for you to buy would be:
The 42nd [East Lancashire] Division 1914-1918 by Frederick P. Gibbon
Published by The Naval and Military press.

A good link to look at would be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42nd_(East_Lancashire)_Infantry_Division

If you have any other questions you can email me on:
mike@mcdesignltd.co.uk

Good luck,
Mike Crane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RILEY6291 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2015 at 09:09
Hello Mike
I had the good fortune to visit the National Archive in Kew this week and have begun to read the War Diaries for 1st 4th ( Blackburn ) Battalion I began on 18 August 1915 the day my grandfather arrived and went on to read the entries until 22 October 1915. I have taken a number of photos of the more interesting entries. As you will know the War Diaries are written in pencil and are quite dificult to read in places as the pencil notes have faded after 100 years. They are even more difficult to read from a photo although some have come out well. I was surprised at the mention of many rank and file men who are listed by name and number when they were wounded or unfortunately killed. There is a particularly interesting entry which refers to the arrival of 4 officers ( all named ) and 189 rank and file
men and how they were split into four companies. 120 men were sent on for duty at Lancashire Landing. I hope to return to Kew again in the not to distant future to continue reading the diaries   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RILEY6291 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2015 at 18:59
Dear All
 
Just a short nnte to say that Ancestry have the Gallipoli war diaries available to view online. I have spent the last couple of days reading the war diaries for 1/4 East Lancashire Regiment which I found to be of great interest
 
Kind regards
 
Derek Riley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RILEY6291 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2015 at 09:03
Hello Mal

I would like to seek your help please.
While researching family history I have found details of my great uncle John Thomas Knowles from Blackburn Lancashie who died of wounds on 17 November 1918 He was a sergeant in the East Lancashire Regiment Reg No 12139. His medal card indicates Theatre of war 2b arrival 01/08/1915. Can you please confirm for me that this means that he was in Gallipoli arrival on the above date. Also on his Ancestry UK Record for UK Soldiers Died in the Great War in the comments box it says M.M. and I wondered if this meant that he was a holder of the Military Medal I would be most grateful for your help with these questions. Thank you
Best regards
Derek Riley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Trounson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2015 at 23:09
G'day Derek,

You are right on both counts. M.M. = Military Medal.   

Arriving at the Gallipoli theatre of operations ties in with the build up for the Suvla Bay landings . Would have landed first at Lemnos to practice their part in the landing which took place on the 6th/7th.

Hope this helps,

Peter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RILEY6291 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2015 at 08:58
Peter

Thank you very much for your helpful reply. The service medal award roll record for my Great Uncle shows that he served in the 8th 3rd and 1st Bn(s) East Lancashire Regiment and the 6 Bn as a sergeant during the course of WW1 would you have any idea which of these were in Gallipoli as I could then read the war diaries for them which are now online. With regard to him being a holder of the Military Medal am I correct in thinking there would be a citation that relates to it in the London Gazette which if it could be traced would be very interesting to read.

Best regards

Derek   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mal Murray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2015 at 10:03
Hi Derek,

Apologies for the delay in response I have been Hor de Combat for the last few weeks.

Firstly all surviving records show that he served at Gallipoli with the 6th Bn. of his Regiment.

I have sent you some documents by email.

Any further questions just ask.

Regards

Mal


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